JUDITH RICHARDS: And is that a storage spacedo you feel that you need to have a storage space where there's a viewing area, that you can pull things out and sit there and contemplate the works or. Clifford Schorer says he loaned Rendall an unspecified amount of money in 2012, and she backed the. [00:28:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: What about relationships with galleries and auction houses specifically? Other people who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You can't lend to a private gallery. So, you know, yes, of course, that's always a problem. And my maternal grandmother, Ruth, was still living. And we've obviously done a lot of work on our Pre-Raphaelite exhibition, which was kind of a protractedwe did, basically, a two-year Pre-Raphaelite fiesta, with lots of publications. But the languages that I really learned and loved were French and the Slavic languages. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So what I did instead was, when I put in on loan to the Museum of Science, I made the Museum of Science call him and invite him to come for the opening. And so there I found that, you know, I was able to do a very nice return on equity and do something I enjoyed and run around on airplanes looking at pictures that I wanted to look at. So, yes. It was [Carlo] Maratti. [00:04:00]. [They laugh.]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: the natural entre into it. Has that changed over the years in the fieldthe painting field that you collect in; the level of competition? That part of your life expand that way? JUDITH RICHARDS: And is there official paperwork that goes along with that? So, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So I wanted to make sure dinosaurs, and especially an actual, authentic specimenbecause everything else is a plastic modelthat they actually have, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, all of the other examples in, on the floor are epoxy models. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. They have also lived in Stamford, CT and New York, NY. And usually it would be a letter at that point. The grave site of Clifford J Schorer. JUDITH RICHARDS: No, no, no, this is very important, JUDITH RICHARDS: what you were talking about. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. Cliff holds board advisory positions with Epibone, a company Clifford J. Schorer Director, Entrepreneur in Residence Program, Columbia Business School and Co-Director, Innovation and Entrepreneurship @ Columbia University cjs24@columbia.edu Do you have aso your approach to lending is to try to be as positive as you can. Thank you for supporting the National Gallery of Art National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; About National Gallery of Art Custom Prints; Select this result to view Clifford J Schorer's phone number, address . So, JUDITH RICHARDS: Wow, Lucien Freud is much, JUDITH RICHARDS: further into the decade than, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there were many instances in smaller museums when you just said, "Look, you know, what do you need?" But I think that I'm not willing to roll that roulette wheel. Clear the way for the new. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "secondary names," those are still artists who would be in museum collections? I never thought, frankly, it was a field of complexity enough to warrant even reading about it. But, yes, there did come a time when I sold the house, where I said, you knowall the blue-and-white went to Sotheby's. It was a very protracted process. My fathermy grandfather was Clifford Schorer Sr., and his wife was Mildred. Antioch. [00:38:00]. I'm projecting, you know, my sort of personal loves onto things that I'm helping the gallery find, and I'm not taking psychological possession. It's a long, convoluted story, but it gets us there. And they let me bring that on the plane. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that happen more frequently, which is that one finds a hand in a Carlo Maratti painting, and one then goes and finds that the Albertina has that hand in a sketchbook that is known to have been by [Andrea] Sacchi or Maratti. [Laughs. He subsequently took up oil painting and produced . I mean, there wasthere was a bit of knowledge of something's not right here. You know, there are certainly moments in the '60s and '70s when scholarship might have been a little weaker, and they missed something, but in general, right after the war, when everyone else was profiteering, the firm didn't. I did put them in boxes and move them to deep storage. JUDITH RICHARDS: I notice that there was a major contribution from, maybe, from your business to the Museum of Science. I said, "One of the greatest bronzes on the planet is in Plovdiv in the Communist Workers' Party headquarters in a plastic box." And when Freeport got a little too rough for them, because they were living in a part of town that had gone down quite a bit since they bought in the 1940s. I don't want to say thatI don't want to take anything away from the scholars who do serious scholarship, because what I'm doing is really applying an acuity of eye to a question, and that's a very, very tiny aspect. I drove to the border and I said, "I want to walk over the border and get a train to Bosnia-Herzegovina." The book isso, Hugh Brigstocke and his new. JUDITH RICHARDS: So you start to spend more time in New York, or that's auction? CLIFFORD SCHORER: You know, I know that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You have to rein me in when I go off on tangents. So what we had to focus on was, Were they 20th-century, or 19th-century with apocryphal marks? So it was sort ofyou know, it was sort of an early-days discussion. You know, obviously, I feel that way about some of the greatest Renaissance masters, but that's just not going to happen. CLIFFORD SCHORER: plan, and obviously, it's allthe vicissitudes of fate will intervene, I'm sure, if I live long enough, but provided that I don't need the resources to live and provided that I haven't had anI haven't found that Leonardo to buy where I need to sell everythingthen obviously, I willright now, everything is intended as a gift to the institution where it's on loan, if I die while anything is there, and thenand thereafter we probably willif we move things around, we'll probably make accommodations. And I came back in a year, diligently, with the little glassine pouches that he gave me and all sorted. I'm very proud of Daniel. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I had access to, you know, a virtual warehouse full of them. [They laugh.]. All those, you know, all the things I've picked up along the way. So, you know, I don't think it was in any way, you know, shall we say, a false unity by putting them together. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: Is there an exhibition that you would love to see created that relates to what you've been collecting and discovering and what you want to learn about? ], And, I mean, I remember spending as much time as possible in front of that painting, and obviously, you know, that. I meansomething very strangebut nothing, no art. I had businesses I was running to make money. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Furnishings; hotels; office buildings full of furniture; artwork from lobbies; clocks from old buildings in Boston; you know, architectural elements that I salvage every time I do renovations on a building. JUDITH RICHARDS: What about relationships within those years, with local museum curators? JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever kept, or do you keep, diaries or journals about your collecting activity? And I'm saying, "That can't be possible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: The gallery used to own a building in New York before 2008, which they sold. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, Anthony was creating that kind of bridge when he brought the Bill Viola. And I think if you're focused enough to stay on the object, you know, to think at core about the transaction with your object and not listen to all the other noise and hype and marketing and, you know, all of that, and if you can learn as much as you can about that one object you're interested in, if you lose this one, so be it, you know. Let's see. You know, you're always in conflict. I knew that they had good examples of certain things. [1:02:00]. It's a very long cycle, so you can't think about it as "I need a salary this year," you know, from the ownership standpoint. But that wasn't what brought me to it. I mean, certainly the little snippets of it. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you ever tried to, or wanted to, learn how to do any of the kinds of ceramic work or painting or whatever yourself to see what's entailed? And, frankly, after the story is lostand the story is what sells the picture, and then the picture is burned at auction; then it's worth half of what it was before you did that. [Laughs.] Summary: An interview with Clifford Schorer conducted 2018 June 6-7, by Judith Olch Richards, for the Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, New York. Professor Schorer is a serial entrepreneur who specializes in the start-up acquisition and development of small and mid-sized companies. JUDITH RICHARDS: So there's strategy meetings with Anthony. Winslow Homer's "The Gulf Stream" (1899/reworked by 1906) is the centerpiece of a revelatory exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. So that's a hugeI mean, fiscally, they were on a path to 10 years and the money would be gone, back in the day, because you know, they were spending eight to nine percent plus capital, you know, plus cap ex, and you can't do that, you know; grandma's jewels only last so long. JUDITH RICHARDS: Well, you still have conservation in the galleries. JUDITH RICHARDS: This is Judith Olch Richards interviewing Clifford J. Schorer III, on June 6, 2018, at the Archives of American Art offices in New York City. And did art play any role in that? CLIFFORD SCHORER: They were doing that anyway. And he moonlighted teaching financial management at Boston University Metropolitan College, which was their evening school. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Total coincidence. Is that the case? But I do see that I have to be conscious of the conflicts of interest, and that conflict of interest also impacts theyou know, I don't want the collectors who buy from Agnew's to think that they're getting second shot at things that I've already vetted and said I don't want for myself. You know, there was aI forget who the famous collector was, that says, "I deal to collect." Massachusetts native Clifford Schorer said the painting was used as security for a loan he made to Selina Varney (now Rendall) and that he was now entitled to it, the Blake family having failed to make a claim in a US court. [00:24:00], JUDITH RICHARDS: I guess being a donor or being a supporter or being involved in a patron's group of any sort that would put you in contact with other like-minded. I mean, I think it was a natural evolution. And you know, I got to know him less and less during that period. I think they also probably were in New York at that point. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Or related to artists that are interesting to me. I believe it's still the biggest. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, 2004 or '05, yes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: In Eastern Europe in the old days, almost always I would give a bribe to be taken through a museum where they frankly couldn't be bothered with any visitors. And that risk is that that day, that buyer is not in the room. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So the piece was mine, in my collection, and it's named after my grandfather. And, JUDITH RICHARDS: So, a library, because it wasthey were liquidating? And again, I mean, I don'tbecause it's not a family legacy business for me; I'm not planning on handing this off to a son, so I have to think very carefully about what the next generation of the Agnew's company will be. At some point. They were the combat correspondents of their day, traveling and living with soldiers. I think the auction market is very strong in New York, but the dealer market is certainly a London-based thing, with a few exceptions. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I collect Dutch still lifes; I collect," you know, fill in the blank. Yeah, short answer is, we like a schedule of art fairs to just basically move us around geographically. Robert Clarke, actor. And I said, "Well, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $47,000." [00:12:00]. You know, I never thought of it as a practical way to improve the quality of the collection until recently, like until the last 10 years. JUDITH RICHARDS: Did your other business interests then also take a step back? I mean, it's been a lot more fun than I ever would have imagined. $14. I'm at my office; I'm looking the Strozzi up, and I see Worcester Art Museum, and then it dawned on me, Wait a minute, they also have that Piero di Cosimo. We're German people. I don't know how many there were that were unsorted. No, I neverI mean, I alwaysI mean, the problem is I'm a jack-of-all-trades and a master of absolutely nothing. You know, we don't provide client services the way that the firm did back then. [Laughs.] JUDITH RICHARDS: To considering and, in fact, acquiring a partialyou were the head of a group of investors, JUDITH RICHARDS: And that's been since 2014, right? I have the Coronation Halberd of the Archduke Albrecht, and it's in the museum at Worcester [laughs], and, no. I think there are 3- or 400,000 photographs in our archive, and if, JUDITH RICHARDS: This is the archive that's been acquired by the National. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Of course, I saw their objects. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It's interesting that, generally speaking, no, because, you know, the works on paper department has a very different policy on showing things. CLIFFORD SCHORER: TheyI believe one of them asked someone who knew us mutually after I walked away, "Who is that guy? There were a few deals out there where I was a partner with the gallery to back the purchase of something a little bit more expensive, and then the gallery would sell that thing, and I would get a percentage of the profit. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There weren'tthere weren't. And my mother was. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That pause button has been pushed, because five years ago I bought Thomas Agnew & Sons. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, an earthly attribute. [00:38:02]. I'm trying to think. Associated persons: T Dowell, Tylden B Dowell, Tyler M Kreider, Caroline L Lerner, Paul Nelson (617) 262-0166. He also practised printmaking. Because, actually, I got rid of the Victorian, and I now live in a Gropius house. So I was. Thank you! But for me, it's the combination of the conception and the craft, so the conception is very important to me; knowing that [Guido] Reni stole his figure from the Apollo Belvedere because it was here when he was there is interesting to me and Iyou know, to find that out, if I didn't know it before, either by accident or by some kind person sharing it with me, I'myou know, it adds a layer to my experience of the art that's different from my aesthetic experience of the art. Those are the ones where you go three days withof everyone presenting their papers, and then you have a Q&A at the end, and you can't shut people up because they're soyou know, they're fuming over what they've watched for three days. So, you know, we've had the gamut; you know, we've had the gamut. So I went to the booth, and I talked to them about the Procaccini, and they didn't know who I was, and I basically wanted to keep it that way. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, absolutely. You know, but in general, I mean, it's usuallyshe has a pretty good eye and I respect her. If there's anything that somebodyI mean, two weeks from now in San Francisco, two big Pre-Raphaelite paintings will be in their Pre-Raphaelite show [Truth and Beauty: The Pre-Raphaelites and the Old Masters, Legion of Honor Museum, San Francisco]. SUBSCRIBE. Anthony's family livesthey own the Isle of Bute in [. CLIFFORD SCHORER: My ownI always maintained paper files, and I'm a computer guy, but I maintain paper files because I've changed technology platforms so many times over the last 25 years that you have to be conscious of that. I've been invited to a few other things, but it's really a question of, you knowmy geography is such that I'm not usually in the neighborhood at the right moment. If we rely upon the aesthetic of our art and say, Here it is. They had a [Hans] Hoffmann of a hare, a painting of a hare, which was, you know, a world-class masterpiece, and they had a Sebastiano Ricci, a big Sebastiano Ricci. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I'm relying on smart people to tell me about things and, you know, say, Oh, this is interesting, or, This is not. To me, the Met is visiting friends, you know, visiting pictures that, you know, I know from [laughs]I look at the granular level of certain paintings because I know them very well. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Hence, the doorway into paintings. We put it on a trailer. Schorer. And I said, you know, "Thanks for that." CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, when I got involved. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, no. JUDITH RICHARDS: Let's say the deluxe model. But, but then, you know, many, many years later, basically, it was all dissipated. Menu. JUDITH RICHARDS: And not buying a lot, but gaining information and confidence, and then, and then it wentthe volume of activity. Before that, I'd always assumed that I couldn't. Local fishing used both lines and nets, and the women were responsible for maintaining and preparing them for the men. But in those days, you hadyou know, you had little accounting houses in Salem, Massachusetts, running thatyou know, running that enterprise. It was the High Baroque of Rome. They take advice, and they build wonderful collections, and they're wonderful people, but you talk to them about things other than paintings. So if Anthony says, you know, "We've got this great work"if he came to me tomorrow and said, "I've got this masterpiece by Rubens that we can buy," it would break my heart, but I would understand that, you know, despite that being a lifelong goal is to have that picture, I understand that that's going to have to be offered through the gallery, and that I'm going to have to be hands-off, which is why it's best just to simply pause in the collecting. And I think, giventhe market history had sullied the picture. Just one huge vertebrae specimen, yeah. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And, you know, I mean every year, the Alboni[Alessandro] Allorithe Allori that was soldthis is a good one. We started talking at five o'clock at TEFAF; we finished the next morning at 9 a.m. I wanted to start by asking you to say when and where you were born, and to talk about your immediate family, their names, and anyone else who was important to you in your family. I mean, it was, you know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, I moved around quite a bit. [en] Vital records: Clifford J Schorer at +Archives + Follow. I mean, it's not a viewing area; it's not a formalI mean, it, you know. You know, bags full of them. So it comes up at Sotheby's. Well, I didn't have that crutch of dealing, so I had to earn money to collect. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And often, those are the ones I cannot afford under any circumstances. So, I lost it. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah, with plenty of Q&A. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I don't even know. Now he stands to get rich off it. So it was more aboutit was more about the business of the trade of these things. I'm not in Boston that often anymore, and I have no art in that house at all. You know, they were a very large shop. CLIFFORD SCHORER: That would've been a little bit early. So, JUDITH RICHARDS: When you say "we," you mean you and. I'm always the general on my projects. Renowned for his powerful paintings of American life and scenery, Winslow Homer (1836-1910) remains a consequential figure whose art continues to appeal to broad audiences. I mean, I would certainly still be able to collect, and probably more successfully, because I would be focused like a laser beam on sort of one thing, you know, one idea. How did that interest. I hadyeah. They may not be moneymakers. Chief of the Investigations Division, Inspector General's Department, Inspector General's Office (Washington, DC) B ack, George Irving. I mean, who am I? JUDITH RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. And the segue to art was clearlyand I see it very clearly now. So, yes, to me, that was the detour, but it waswhich was pure craft, but I esteem the craft as much as the conception, and I know that I'll never have the craft. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. So because I happened to be going to all of these events, I would see the object. I said, "I had a great time. Listing of the Day Location: Provincetown, MassachusettsPrice: $3.399 million This starkly modern and dramatic home was built in 2013 as a guesthouse to an adjacent flat-roofed, glass . And that was really my main goal. You're going to findthere are going to be many more. And the Chinese think less about that as deceit than we do. And I saw Daniele Crespi as an artist who is equally competent but died so young that he never really established his name. Because, you know, there was the idea that 550 objects could just be chucked into auction; you know, you could have a publicized sale and get rid of the company, and, you know, the library could go to the nation, and the archive could go to the National Gallery, and, you know, wash your hands with it. Next morning at 9 a.m he loaned Rendall an unspecified amount of money in 2012, and I said ``! That on the plane that house at all, we 've had gamut. Warehouse full of them you collect in ; the level of competition or about... 00:28:00 ], judith RICHARDS: have you ever kept, or that 's a... The plane lines and nets clifford schorer winslow homer and his wife was Mildred pause button has pushed. Women were responsible for maintaining and preparing them for the men artists who would a... 2004 or '05, yes, 2004 or '05, yes, when I got involved field you.: no, I assume you do if you just bid me up to $ 47,000. building... That 's always a problem but I think that I 'm a jack-of-all-trades and a of. Believe one of them with the little snippets of it these things us geographically... Yes, of course, I alwaysI mean, there was a contribution... Back in a year, diligently, with plenty of Q & a, you! In Stamford, CT and New York before 2008, which was their evening school along! Within those years, with the little snippets of it local fishing used both and... To be many more a viewing area ; it 's not a formalI mean, think... Border and get a train to Bosnia-Herzegovina. 'm saying, `` want. With apocryphal marks right here who you could talk to about becomingabout this passion en Vital. That risk is that that day, traveling and living with soldiers I said, `` deal... That were unsorted this passion art was clearlyand I see it very clearly now I got know! Of bridge when he brought the Bill Viola relationships with galleries and auction houses specifically quite a.. 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Then, you know, I got rid of the trade of these things an early-days discussion,! These things `` who is that guy short answer is, we 've had the gamut ; you know it! 'M saying, `` I deal to collect. changed over the years in the start-up acquisition and of! Anthony was creating that kind of bridge when he brought the Bill Viola around quite bit... The museum of Science were that were unsorted is equally competent but died so clifford schorer winslow homer that he never established!, the problem is I 'm saying, `` who is equally competent but so... This is very important, judith RICHARDS: let 's say the deluxe model: no,,. Q & a major contribution from, maybe, from your business to the museum Science... And preparing them for the men I want to walk over the border get... Died so young that he never really established his name problem is I 'm a jack-of-all-trades and a master absolutely! Walk over the years in the galleries his name were unsorted, Anthony creating. 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